Alabama Football Recruiting - "Nobody really knows"
by Michael Collins on Jan 22, 2012 9:13 PM EST
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PrintYou have to feel sorry for Nick Saban. In spite of a veritable rush for the door by Alabama football signees, the Coach has perservered to win another National Championship. Just last year at this time he told the press that 2011 Alabama LOI signees "was the number of players we could take" on scholarship. By fall camp, the eighty-five total limit composed of his 2011 twenty-three scholarship players had shrunken by twelve players.
I had no idea Alabama won the championship with just seventy-three scholarship players.
Year in and year out this tragedy impacts the Alabama football program. Players seem to regard it as a Tuscaloosa truck stop where they can pick up some ham and grits on the way out of town. Ten players left in 2010. Nine players on the spring roster in 2009 weren't around for the fall, not counting two not offered a fifth year. At last count, Bama has suffered losses of thirty-one scholarship players in three years!
Every couple of years the Tide loses the equivalent of an entire recruiting class - and not just any recruiting class. Counting the player losses of the last two years, fourteen players were ranked four stars or better by Rivals! The situation is so dire it seems like a Biblical curse is raining down on poor Nick - ten players in three years have suffered injuries that he has had to offer medical hardship scholarships. One player even transferred to Auburn!
In ten years, Jim Tressel handed out only four medical hardship scholarships at Ohio State.
Throughout all of this rejection and Job-like suffering, Saban has perserved despite accusations of oversigning, forcing players to accept medical hardships, and writers in Alabama wanting him to make disclosures about who is on scholarship. You would think Nick would want to leave for the Big 10 and a simpler life where coaches like Pat Fitzgerald of Northwestern say last year that "We had seventeen to give. We're at eighty-five right now."
You have to admire the spirit of Alabama and other Southern state natives, too, whose participation swelled the Alabama Roster - after the eleven defectors - to 120. Twenty-six players of those fall roster were listed on the Scout Squad. To the outside eye, it looks like ninety-four players (120-26) were not on the Scout Squad. But that's only twenty over the seventy-four for whom Saban had room.
Nick has a much higher degree in math than most of us.
Alabama has signed 109 student-athletes to Letters of Intent over the last four years (32+28+26+23). Plus nine players of the 2007 class played on this year's Bama team. Who can blame Saban with his rate of attrition for harvesting 27 verbals so far this year? Five more players have narrowed their final choices that include Alabama. With three verbals who are Defensive Tackles, three of the remaining five are also defensive tackles. Would Alabama take six DTs?
Alabama has 13 returning Wide Receivers. Michigan has eight. Alabama has 16 returning Offensive Linemen. Michigan State has eight. Alabama has 15 returning Defensive Backs. Penn State has seven. (Alabama Eligibility Chart)
Alabama has twenty-four departing Seniors plus three Juniors entering the NFL draft early, but five are Scout Squad members. So, twenty-two scholarships should be available for the twenty-seven plus verbals.
Three of the five remaining prospects have narrowed their choices to Alabama and one other school. One has Alabama in their final three. One has the Tide in their final four.
This year Nick Saban has to face what most other coaches face, keeping under the limits of 25 signees a year by National Signing Day per a new SEC rule that requires players to be notified prior to National Signing Day. Already he has notified one player that his commitment months ago would have to be honored in the 2013 class. Another of the twenty-seven is considered a "soft" verbal for some reason. Every commitment from a highly-ranked 2012 class prospect from here on out threatens to bump someone who accepted Nick's promised scholarship earlier this year.
The SEC doesn't understand the suffering in the program. Saban has to commiserate with Les Miles. The local press from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution to AL.com want more than he can give. Saban gets the podium on Signing Day, saying last year:
"We have so many seniors; we have some guys going out for the draft. Nobody really knows how many guys we had on scholarship last year, but it wasn’t 85. I can tell you that. We have some people that could not finish the season that will probably not be able to continue to play, that will be replaced and we have several players that can graduate and may not come back for their fifth year, who have been redshirted. When you add all those things up, plus guys we have that may not qualify, it is not fair to criticize the numbers."
Why the criticism inside and outside the SEC is beyond me
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This really has to stop...
and sadly, the NCAA will sit on the sidelines and not do anything about it. Instead, they propose reducing the number of scholarships from 85 to 80. Makes complete sense, since that won’t make the problem worse.
Is it possible that a few years from now we see back-to-back vacated national titles? Just curious…
I don't tweet often--but when I do, you can be sure it isn't important.
@jemiesle
This is seriously out of control.
Does the NCAA monitor the 85/25 in any way that we are actually aware of?
Surely the schools have to submit something each semester that lists all of their scholarship athletes by name right? This is really egregious on Saban’s part. And what happens to these kids that mysteriously disappear?
This is really, really bad.
whiskey
www.onefootdown.com
I always assumed that they did.
But then Saban says that no one really knows how many scholarship players he has. Now that I think about it, it wouldn’t surprise me if the NCAA was asleep at the wheel on this.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 23, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
There are some simple solutions that can be instituted
that I frankly don’t understand why they aren’t:
1. Put a hard cap on the number of scholarships that can be handed out in a 4 year period (95, 100, whatever) that is transfer and med scholarship inclusive
2. All scholarships are binding for 4 years.
The SEC West takes full advantage of the loopholes and until the NCAA closes them, they’ll continue to use the competitive advantage oversigning gives them.
Competitive edge
I think recruiting to a larger degree is a little bit of a numbers game. We have an evaluation system. The more players we can get on our board that past our evaluation system, that meet the criteria for what we want for a position and have the athletic ability to meet those criteria, with the size and speed to meet the criteria, as well as the character and attitude we’re looking for in our players here, the more guys we get on the board the better we’ll do.
(from Saban’s 2011 Signing Day transcript) (Italics mine)
Whether you are the NCAA sanctioning a program by restricting scholarships or a coach pushing the limits, numbers – or lack thereof – are considered important for your program.
The NCAA book is filled with regulations to prevent teams from gaining a competitive edge. Is this the elephant in the living room?
by Michael Collins on Jan 23, 2012 12:24 AM EST reply actions
Elephant = pun intended?
I don't tweet often--but when I do, you can be sure it isn't important.
@jemiesle
Best left to the imagination, don't you think?
However, I want to contribute that Nick Saban said on the occasion of Star Jackson’s transfer from Alabama:
We hate to see any player leave the program, but quarterback’s kind of a unique position where one guy can play, and we have a lot of competition there right now.
Jackson was a four star ranked QB and a former Super 8 QB. Saban’s explanation was:
I think sometimes when quarterbacks can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of when they might be able to play, they get a little antsy and might want to go someplace else. Star and I have discussed it, and we’re going to help him do what he feels is going to make him and his family the best decision for his future.
Was Saban shedding crocodile tears?
by Michael Collins on Jan 24, 2012 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
One loophole in the SEC's roster management rule
is that summer enrollees do not count towards the next year’s class scholarship limit of 25.
The SEC considered this but due to “heavy push-back by the coaches”, that rule was not adopted.
Big 10 schools are not allowed to sign more than the 85 limit. 85 vs 100+
by Michael Collins on Jan 23, 2012 10:02 AM EST reply actions
Think someone at tWWL
Is eventually going to put 85 and 100 together to understand why the SEC has won the last few BCS championships?
…naaa me neither, no money there.
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 23, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
This has a lot to do with it, but you also need to consider that something like 56% of the country's elite defensive linemen come out of the southeast.
This too has something to do with it, though anyone who’s playing by the rules is fighting the SEC schools with both hands and a foot tied behind their backs while trying to ice skate uphill.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 23, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Truly incredible.
I’m too sick of this crap to get too mad. I’m just disappointed that the N-C-Double-A$$H@#!&s—to quote the immortal Alvin Mack—won’t do anything about it.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 23, 2012 10:36 AM EST reply actions
I wonder if...
student athletes protested the NCAA during Super Bowl week, it would actually get any attention. There has been plenty of debate over the $2,000 stipend for SAs, and many schools seem hesitant while simultaneously (a) increasing coaching salaries and (b) trying to reduce the number of scholarships.
I don't tweet often--but when I do, you can be sure it isn't important.
@jemiesle
Stipends will be useless, they will just increase the minimum corruption level.
I don’t think the athletes who attend the worst offenders necessarily see it as something that needs to be rectified. They are wholly infected with the invincibility complex. It won’t happen to them, until it does.
The coaches don’t need to work to hard to sell the dream to these kids, and I don’t believe it is pure snake oil they are selling. Kids see a steady parade of 1st/2nd rounders leaving, Saban et al have a good track record of placing elite prospects in the NFL. Call them a very successful group of headhunters. They have built a solid reputation by only putting the best candidates forward. Oh they will take your money, but if you are not the perfect candidate for an opening, no one will ever see your file.
So both sides know the game and are in on it. The kids & families want the best coaching and chances of turning god given talent into NFL millions. The schools want that same talent to turn it into National Titles.
The breakdown, of course, is when the talent does not make it to the next level under the excellent tutelage. What happens in most places is that the scholly is lost/useless as the player sinks on the depth chart, seeing mop up minutes and scout team duties. As long as that scholly is active on a non performing player, it accrues costs due to other lost opportunities (recruits you are unable to offer due to numbers crunch). Solving that problem equitably for both sides, that is where the NCAA will need to step in, or the conferences, or the individual school presidents. The kid loses all of his bargaining power and is left as an indentured servant to the Athletic Department once he signs that LoI on NSD. Finding a way to retain some power would go a long way to righting the wrongs of the current recruiting system.
1. I don’t see a need for or the utility of an early signing period, as pertains to oversigning. Maybe I am missing something in the argument.
2. Allow athletes to transfer without penalty. It removes the highest barrier a student athlete faces when they want to move on instead of being dropped. Currently, they must find a school possible willing to keep them onboard for that first year transfer penalty. I don’t know the history of this rule, I mean, what is the difference between going to an Div-2A (or lower level) team vs. a Div-1A team? Is it and artifact from when coaches and systems stayed in pace for years and transfers were rare? It gave the releasing team time to change signs or calls before they could credibly face an ex-teammate? It just seems a punishment that might have fit a long ago era, but does not anymore.
3. Making the scholarship a 4-year commitment would be another excellent step. Teams would eventually find themselves much more interested in the little run ins with the law or team rules than they are now.
4. Outside review of medical hardships, with immediate automatic penalties for those found to be fraudulent, would curtail that practice….temporarily. Then you would see a renaissance of care for concussions and recurrent concussions. They will quickly find that amorphous symptom that allows them to start cashiering non-performers again.
5. This is off the top of my head, since they may already be part of the accounting, but keep track of medical hardship scholarships as part of the graduation percentage formula.
In the end, the change must be made…truly for the kids. There is too much money, prestige, and ego for some of these coaches, ADs, schools to ever put a stop to it. The kids are the ones who are led down the path, set up with the easiest classes and majors, dumped when convenient, and left to fend for themselves the rest of their life.
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 23, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
This obviously wouldn't solve the problem, but another avenue for addressing this
that is currently creating some interest is to give the student athletes themselves a seat at the table with the NCAA through a players’ association. When news was coming out about universities opposing the $2,000 stipend, the NCPA (http://www.ncpanow.org/more?id=0004) was getting a lot of attention from players (including Irish players) who see a union as a way to at least voice their own complaints to the NCAA.
Would this give athletes who have signed themselves over to an athletic department a little more collective leverage? Who knows. It would be interesting to see it’s effects, though. I imagine it could function like a graduate student association (grad students similarly bind themselves to universities, who pay them conditional stipends and tuition to study and also serve as instructors, RAs, TAs, etc., where they are often misused; they are represented to their various departments and universities, as well as nationally, by unions that advocate for their interests, often quite successfully).
#figureitoutbobby
by fishoutofwater on Jan 23, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
That could work as a vehicle to bring about the needed changes
but could also open a whole can of worms in and of itself. Not sure that a union whose elder membersare 23 years old is the best idea evah.
The threat of one could act as the spur to move other reforms along.
What other sport could rival football for membership? (85 + walkons) x (120 D1A teams) + D1-AA (& lower tiers) players. Would all the other sports combined even be co-equal with football?
If no, then do we have sport specific unions? Would that be any more useful than no union representation at all?
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 23, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, it obviously wouldn't be a magic bullet,
but these are college students, they know their own interests, and they know they’re tied up in a billion-dollar industry that has its own interests – interests that fully rely on their bodies and hard work, but that in key ways work against what would be in their best interest. It’s hard for me to see how it could legitimately hurt the situation to have some forms of direct representation of student athletes to the NCAA and to each athletic department, whatever it looks like.
The question of how representation among various sports would work is a good one. It looks like the NCPA is just a blanket D-1 collegiate athletes union. Perhaps the association would work as a single entity on overlapping concerns and then allow for sport-specific representation to the NCAA and to individual programs where interests are unique. With graduate student associations, every department has their own GSA representatives who meet with reps from all depts. and communicate with GSAs across the nation regularly, depending on the level at which an issue needs to be addressed. At the end of the day, what has the most impact is each college’s GSA’s communication with the graduate school and with the university administration.
#figureitoutbobby
by fishoutofwater on Jan 23, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Fishoutofwater
the more I think about it, the better that idea becomes.
Who would take up the case of an athlete that believes they are being railroaded into a medical hardship? Or if a kid got booted for the twin offenses of underage drinking and not being a starter, who does the kid appeal to? A union or representative body more aligned with their interests might be the answer to those questions.
Of course then we run into right to work states and other issues, how would a uniform policy be settled among the many states. That might also be too spidery a question to truly debate here…hehe
You sound like you are much more informed on grad student union action and issues. Are you a recovering academic?
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 24, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
Haha - a current academic, actually.
I’m an ND grad student at the moment. Seeing the GSA at work has been pretty interesting, and I like the analogy of grad students to student athletes – they match up on a number of relevant levels regarding their unique and mutually beneficiary relationship to the university. It does seem to me like collective representation to the NCAA and to individual athletic departments by the student athletes themselves would increase their leverage and give them a clearer channel by which to voice concerns.
#figureitoutbobby
by fishoutofwater on Jan 24, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Something needs to give.
The leverage issue is the crux of the matter in this case. As long as one side holds all the cards, the only way to change is through negative publicity. I am not sure that the athlete has any standing to sue the Athletic Department or school. Something along the lines of wrongful termination if they could prove the cut (medical hardship, rules violation, etc) was not on the level and was actually a recruiting numbers crunch.
My heart breaks for the innocent naivete of that RB from Atlanta. Coach Saban signed a piece of paper stating he would give him a spot in 2013. I am sure there is a medical clause somewhere that allows Alabama to wiggle out with just the minimum effort, like not passing a physical run by Saban’ team trainer staff.
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 24, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think right-to-work state laws would be an issue.
The issue is federal law and the NLRA. This is going to be a gross oversimplification, but if you start paying the kids, then they have the right to unionize under federal law. Then what happens if they don’t like the way they’re getting treated and the school won’t budge? Strike.
The problem with paying the athletes is that you probably can’t stop them from unionizing, which means you can’t stop them from striking, and you have to collectively bargain with them.
But I do agree—no one is looking out solely for the interests of the student athlete, except the poor, defenseless individual student athlete.
Now, I’m not sure how the GSA works. Is it a union under the NLRA? If not, if it’s a special bird, then that model might be great for student athletes. But then who’s going to agitate for it? Not the NCAA. The problem here is that students are only students for 1-6 years. They don’t care about this before they become students, and they won’t care about it afterwards, so there’s no political impetus.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 24, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
The GSA
is a member of the National Association of Graduate-Professional Students, Inc. Don’t know if it is a union under the terms of the NLRA, but it sounds like it.
Many grad students receive (per their program contract) full tuition plus a large “stipend” or “scholarship,” and I don’t know that that creates an employer-employee relationship between the university and the graduate student. Many undergrads also receive tuition and scholarship money, obviously, so that part isn’t unique; it’s the stipend and coordinate service obligation that creates the exchange. That part of the exchange is similar, in my mind, to the student athletes’ commitment to the department and the reciprocal tuition scholarship, plus, if it ever goes through, the expenses scholarship. As with student athletes, the GSA serves a constantly rotating group of grad students who are grad students for just 2-8 years, but it serves such an obvious purpose that this doesn’t seem to hinder their work.
It looks like the NCPA is already formed, has well-articulated positions and initiatives, and is working to make student athletes aware of its advocacy. I don’t think it has any sort of actual relationship with the NCAA or any athletic departments at this point, but a lot of athletes at least are aware of its current and potential role and are interested in it (a number of Irish football players recently tweeted their support of it).
#figureitoutbobby
by fishoutofwater on Jan 24, 2012 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
What we need is a Curt Flood
someone who says the system is messed up, violates laws by restricting individual rights, and is willing to go to court. He would be a five star recruit who refused to sign a LOI, but had offers from everyone.
Those who had the least liability would be the schools who effectively offered four year rides. Those with the most liability would be the governing body and those schools with a track record of abusing the system and damaging the participating parties.
by Michael Collins on Jan 24, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
.
Not sure that a union whose elder membersare 23 years old is the best idea evah.
Brandon Weeden and the entire BYU team would like a word with you
Even the Pope hates the Trojans
Any such union would most likely have non-23-year-old advisors and attorneys.
I wouldn’t worry about the age thing.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 23, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
The word "elder" was used quite specifically for that purpose.
However my math was off.
/lotsa Mormons in PHX
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 24, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree on the early signing period.
I absolutely think this helps with the issue. A signed LOI is a binding contract for the SA and school, and there isn’t much of a way around it. While it isn’t the solution to the problem, it at least starts down that path.
With an early signing period, future SAs like the kid at USC or Alabama that were told they were having their scholarship pulled after being “committed” for many months wouldn’t be in the situation they are now.
I don't tweet often--but when I do, you can be sure it isn't important.
@jemiesle
True, or schools would avoid the early period.
One of the points of the verbal, from a Saban perspective, is to keep the kid off of other teams without truly giving anything up, without entering into a binding agreement.
Would they use it for the next consensus Top 5-10 player, of course. No brainer, ut that guy was not going to get bumped anyway.
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 23, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
Also, still only binding for 1 year.
A blown out knee during your senior year of HS (like happened to the Atlanta kid), rehab freshman, bumped for RB back in next recruiting class who is not rehabbing a knee. Nothing new to see here.
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 23, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that stipends will only increase the minimum corruption level,
but that doesn’t hurt the current situation. It only means that the universities need to spend a little more cash. But is also helps kids who think that they just can’t afford to go to a school that doesn’t hook them up with a no-show job or slip them cash or casino chips.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 23, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Correct me if I'm wrong
But I think you’re missing the point of the minimum corruption level argument. Say everyone gets a 2k stipend for expenses. This will not stop the dirty schools from getting illicit money to their kids. If someone is concerned about being broke in college or providing for his family, he’s not going to go for the clean program that gives him legal stipend; he’ll be at Auburn, after they assure him that a no-show job with a booster will get him twice as much.
Even the Pope hates the Trojans
Maybe, maybe not.
But they wouldn’t be able to say that all of the expenses related to going to ND would break them. I think it would help us. It couldn’t hurt.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 23, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
I think it actually has the potential to do a lot of harm
just not to ND football (or any other major football program). It will hurt the smaller schools that are already fighting losing battles to keep their athletic departments in the black during a terrible budgetary time. Sure the cost is around 170k for 85 students on a football schollies which, while not a huge chunk of money, could otherwise be used to hire or keep on another professor or two. Where things get REALLY dicey is if the stipends-to-fb run afoul of Title IX. If the universities were forced to match the raised football stipend for all of their athletes, they would wind up shedding a lot of of non-revenue sports.
Even the Pope hates the Trojans
Title IX is a good point.
But student-athletes work so hard and have so little time in which to find a real job, that I think something needs to be done.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 23, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Not so sure it is that much money across the board...
I started adding it up at one point (and didn’t finish), but I think if a school had the maximum number of athletes on scholarship for all sports, it was somewhere in the 300 ballpark, which is only $600k, or what most big schools pay one of their assistant coaches.
The problem right now with athletic departments is that they spend every single dime they get their hand on.
I don't tweet often--but when I do, you can be sure it isn't important.
@jemiesle
That last point is a salient one
Athletic departments show about the same level of fiscal responsibility as our government does. Even if it’s on the order of a half million dollars, that’s still money that the athletic department will siphon off from the rest of the university. The top programs can take that out of their football/basketball proceeds while continuing to post a profit, but at the vast majority of schools it will have to come by cutting funding for something else.
Even the Pope hates the Trojans
by Publius2010 on Jan 24, 2012 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
I am pessimistic but there is a possible glimmer of hope.
Whereas Miles Brand enforced next to nothing at the top of Div-1A, Emmert has at least concluded a few investigations at big time schools. USC & OSU have at least tasted the lash. There is eventually to be some given out to Miami. It may be that slowly, they get ’round to this.
I can’t imagine that the public outing of Saban’s “see ya next year” recruiting pitch is going to help lower the interest in the SEC’s recruiting practices. At some point, people will notice that it is an very unfair practice.
Who cares, certainly not me, if it is unfair to the B1G, or other groups/teams that regulate themselves. Someone will see that it is extremely unfair to the 18 year olds that are continually taken in.
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 23, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Regarding the 4-year scholarship proposal, what's the other side of the coin?
What is the quid pro quo from the athlete’s perspective? What is the additional cost to the athlete compared to the way things are now? I’d hate to see an even greater barrier to transfer than already exists.
by The Guys Get Shirts! on Jan 23, 2012 2:40 PM EST reply actions
Alabama Scholarship Players left by class
who were on the roster this past year:
Class of 2007 – 9 (originally 25), these would be the fifth year seniors
Class of 2008 – 14 (out of 32)
Class of 2009 – 19 (out of 28)
Class of 2010 – 20 (out of 26), two greyshirted to 2011
Class of 2011 – 21 (out of 23), included two greyshirts from 2010 (one 2011 greyshirt will be in the 2012 class)
Some points:
1. Even if Saban does not have any fifth years from the 2008 class, he needs to trim his roster from the 2009 class (or elsewhere) to accomodate 25 new scholarship players. Who’s a target after playing football for a couple of years at Alabama? Yes, there may be attrition.
2. Compared to Notre Dame who had:
Class of 2008 – 21 of 23 remaining
Class of 2009 – 15 of 18
Class of 2010 – 19 of 23
Class of 2011 – 25 of 24 (Counting Carlisle as late transfer in)
The attrition at Alabama is much greater. In all fairness, Saban dealt with some disciplinary issues, especially through 2009. Also, over the years, Alabama may have accepted everyone and determined after NSD, if they were academically qualified.
3. Alabama – or someone else – may argue (and has) that the four year scholarship would deprive kids with marginal academics of the chance to work hard and get a college degree.
4. With each year, Alabama’s class is full or almost full to the 25 limit (certainly maintaining to 85 takes “roster management”). So those players who go to Community College have a difficult road to return as part of a new class, which also includes picking some top JC players who did not originally commit to Ala.
by Michael Collins on Jan 23, 2012 10:50 PM EST reply actions
Also
I meant to include in the #1 point about Alabama’s numbers that those losses to some classes also include those who left through the NFL draft.
by Michael Collins on Jan 23, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
Here's looking at one class - 2008
Of the 18 players who left, three went to the NFL in 2011. The other 15 left Alabama for various reasons, mostly transfers but a higher number of medical hardships than other programs.
Tracking all 32 members of 2008 signing class
The medical hardship cases were covered in this article from the Wall Street Journal, which said:
Former Alabama football players say the school’s No. 1-ranked football program has tried to gain a competitive edge by encouraging some underperforming players to quit the team for medical reasons, even in cases where the players are still healthy enough to play.
and
Three Alabama players who’ve taken these exemptions say they believe the team uses the practice as a way to clear spots for better players by cutting players it no longer wants. These players said they believe Mr. Saban and his staff pressure some players to take these scholarships even though their injuries aren’t serious enough to warrant keeping them off the field.
by Michael Collins on Jan 24, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
As sketchy as the medical hardship scholarship thing is...
Consider that the alternative is cutting players entirely and leaving them to fend for themselves on tuition. At least the medical hardship keeps their education paid-for.
by Mr Wednesday on Jan 24, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Injuries are serious
ND has had their share, too. You leave it up to the physicians to determine if an injury is chronic and playing would put you at risk for further harm. As the article says, the medical hardship scholie is “intended to make sure scholarship athletes who are too injured to play don’t lose their financial aid.”
From Al.com article on Darius McKeller injury:
McKeller was dealing with a “traumatic wrist injury” and had been through several surgeries that had failed to improve the situation, according to Saban.
“Our medical staff thought that he would be at severe risk of injuring it again if he continued to play,” Saban said (written March 24,2010)
By August, 2011, McKeller transferred to South Alabama, where he will play in 2012. Their doctors must disagree that McKellar can continue to play without severe risk.
The one constant in almost all the medical hardships Alabama has offered is the players are deep on the depth chart. Mark Barron, for instance, fought through serious injuries and rehabed. We also do not know if all of the transfers – generally of players who were buried on the depth chart – were approached with an offer for a medical hardship scholarship but refused and transferred.
One player had “heat related illnesses” and another a concussion the previous year. Sometimes they were offered not only the scholarship for completing their undergraduate degree but paying for their graduate degree.
The question is really whether Saban uses it as a tool is being used to trim his roster of unwanted players. Michigan State, where Saban once coached, kept one of their players on a football scholarship for three years after he was diagnosed with cancer in spite of not being able to practice.
by Michael Collins on Jan 25, 2012 2:13 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think he's using it as a tool to keep his roster trimmed.
I do think he’s using it as a tool to keep trimmed players in school and, presumably, on course to get a degree. While I think the ethics of what he’s doing are decidedly shady, it’s still better than other coaches (say, Miles) who, in the same situation, would simply cut the player and leave him to fend for himself.
by Mr Wednesday on Jan 26, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks for the comment
Can you account for the number of players who transferred to another D-1 school and how very few players who have stayed the course at Alabama and done everything he asked are not in the top 2 of the depth chart?
Only Billingsley and Tyler Love from the 2008 class of 32 are 3rd string of the 14 left.
by Michael Collins on Jan 26, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
It's not something I've looked at in any detail.
All I know about ’Bama is that they oversign a lot and Saban has significantly more guys on injury scholarships than the average team. Anything else I say is just me drawing logical inferences from those data.
by Mr Wednesday on Jan 26, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Al.com reports
Why don’t we know? Alabama won’t tell us, even though we ask every year.
Birmingham News colleague Jon Solomon requests a copy of the annual NCAA revenue and expense report from every Division I athletics department in the state. One of the categories on that report is number of student-athletes on scholarship in each varsity sport.
Every Division I public school in this state provides us a copy of those reports. Only Alabama blacks out the scholarship numbers for every sport.
We know from the latest form that Alabama reported spending $3,041,356 on football scholarships for the 2009-10 academic year. We don’t know how many players Alabama reported having on scholarship that year.
(Source)
If a Big Ten school oversigns, it has to explain to the conference office how it will have a scholarship available when those extra signees hit campus. Banking on a certain number of players to create their own exit strategies before fall camp doesn’t cut it.
by Michael Collins on Jan 24, 2012 10:26 AM EST reply actions
"Every Division I public school in this state provides us a copy of those reports. Only Alabama blacks out the scholarship numbers for every sport."
Ummmm…. FOIA Lawsuit?
MC, should we file one? Ooh that would get ugly.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 24, 2012 4:31 PM EST reply actions
Get some Auburn fans to do the dirty work for you
Even the Pope hates the Trojans
I don't think we'll have much luck there.
Because that goes both ways. Auburn does the same thing, I’m sure.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 24, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Think globally
Act locally. Especially if you know a good attorney.
by Michael Collins on Jan 24, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
For years, the Southwestern Conference (remember them?) ...
was the sewer of college football.
Well, it looks like the toilets are backing up in the SEC.
IF IT TAKES FOREVER!!
by Cubfansince1957 on Jan 24, 2012 11:02 PM EST reply actions
Backing up?
The brown stuff is flowing through the streets.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 24, 2012 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
Directional
Seems like they flow to the West
by Michael Collins on Jan 25, 2012 2:19 AM EST up reply actions
Florida's President's views, from Feb 1, 2011
For most young people, the decision on where to attend college is one of life’s most important events. It involves analysis and contemplation by the student and a contract of acceptance (and scholarship in the case of student-athletes) by the institution.
Once this contract is agreed to there is a great joy and it represents the beginning of a new journey for the student. It is a life-changing event.
Imagine the feeling if the student finds out, literally a few months before enrolling, that the institution is backing out of the contract. It is too late in the summer to go back to one’s second choice. The student is told he will have to wait until next year. Sorry, but no acceptance, no scholarship. That’s it.
In Division I college football this practice is known as “grayshirting” and, unfortunately, there are universities that sanction this activity. The universities, with full knowledge of what they are doing, extend more athletic scholarships than they have. These schools play roulette with the lives of talented young people. If they run out of scholarships, too bad. The letter-of-intent signed by the university the previous February is voided. Technically, it’s legal to do this. Morally, it is reprehensible.
Associated with “grayshirting” — and equally disgusting — is the nefarious practice of prematurely ending student-athletes’ scholarships. Some are just not renewed even though the student-athlete is doing what is asked of him.
Some students are mysteriously given a “medical exemption” which ends their athletic careers — and makes another scholarship available for the football coach to hand out.
There are, to be sure, some legitimate circumstances that result in scholarship non-renewal but regardless of the situation it is the student athlete who is impacted and the university that benefits.
No university would allow this for the general student body. Imagine the uproar it would cause! What needs to happen in intercollegiate athletics is that universities must accept the moral responsibility to stop and prevent “grayshirting” and its associated actions. The football programs must be accountable and should honor institutional commitments to students. It is, after all, a moral contract.
Source: Florida president: grayshirting is morally reprehensible
by Michael Collins on Jan 25, 2012 10:07 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Why don't we hear Swarbrick talking about this.
Not only is it right, but it’s in our best interests.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 25, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Bama grayshirts new OC after oversigning coaches
The MZone has learned that newly hired Alabama offensive coordinator Doug Nussmeir is being asked to sit out the 2012 season and join the Crimson Tide staff next year because Nick Saban has signed too many football coaches. Nussmeir, who had been the offensive coordinator at Washington, found out only after he and his family arrived in Tuscaloosa on Monday afternoon.
“Coach Saban said he wished he would’ve been able to tell me before I quit my old job, sold my house, moved all the way across the country with my family and had six other coaching offers I turned down instead of telling me now,” said Nussmeir as he stood next to his crying wife and kids on the front lawn of the new Tuscaloosa house that they can no longer afford. “He (Saban) said the only reason he can’t have me join his staff for this season is because he can’t have too many offensive coordinators. He can only have one. And he hired three. But he said he was going to bring me in for the 2013 season. And I know it’s true because he said he would pinky swear that he would keep his word about that – which has to really, really mean something. I mean, it’s not like he offered to just sign some random piece of paper.”
by Michael Collins on Jan 26, 2012 12:49 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
Have we ever had a green-quote'd comment go green?
What does it look like?
Let’s find out!
Rec this!
Sky rockets in flight.
by Eric Murtaugh on Jan 26, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
If not, y'all have now.
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 26, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
Justin Taylor and Nick Saban
Nick Saban and Justin Taylor sat across from each other for about an hour at North Atlanta High School on Tuesday.
It was the first face-to-face meeting between the two since it was reported that Taylor can’t sign with Alabama this year. It was surprising news for Taylor, who has been committed to Alabama since last February (he was the 7th of Alabama’s 27 commitments). The Crimson Tide wants Taylor to "grayshirt" because of a knee injury and wait to enroll in 2013, while others speculate that it was creative "roster management" by Saban.
From: Nick Saban meets with Justin Taylor, promises to "stand by his word"
by Michael Collins on Jan 26, 2012 12:54 AM EST reply actions
What problems will there be if Taylor is not signed in 2013?
Saban already broke his word once, when he offered a commitable scholarship offer to the kid in Feb last year.
However this seems to be a self limiting little trick for Saban. You can not keep kicking the recruit’s can down the road. Ol’ St Nick is going to need to develop some new tricks besides this one.
Well hello there hangover. Fancy meeting you here this bright Thursday morning.
by Cranked_Irish on Jan 26, 2012 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
Not unless the NCAA does something.
Alabama has the number-one-ranked recruiting class, so the it’s clear that the kids aren’t going to wise up. They’re falling all over themselves and each other to play for Little Nicky.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 26, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
This
it’s clear that the kids aren’t going to wise up
This justifies intervention into the market. You wouldn’t need NCAA intervention if the actors were rational. The number of kids interested in playing for Alabama would decline, as some would be averse to the risk that they find themselves among the grayshirts or medical hardship cases. But they aren’t rational, so there is no market correction.
Just so I’m clear, I’m not calling any of these kids stupid or anything along those lines. None of us were rational when we were 17-19 years old. Especially not those of us who spent the previous 4 years being feted by our adoring friends, teachers, community and shady uncles (the royal “us;” I’ve never been feted for anything ever). Every kid thinks that they’re going to step right in and start, or compete for a starting job, and be in the NFL in 3 years. And why would they think differently?
(And I’m teeing this up for anyone who wants to put the Maude Flanders “But what about the CHILDREN????” .jpg down below. I deserve it.)
by The Guys Get Shirts! on Jan 26, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, you're right, and I also wasn't implying that the kids are stupid.
If you play football growing up and in high school, it’s probably your dream to play in the NFL. You get the head coach, coordinator, or assistant coach from the number one team in the country telling you that your hiney doesn’t stink, that you’ll start right away, and that you’ll be in the NFL in three years after you’ve led the Tide to a national championship. It takes a pretty savvy customer—and someone who is VERY honest with themselves about how good they really are—to say, “nah, I think this guy is full of bull. I can’t crack the two deep there, so I’m going to go somewhere else.” This grayshirting and yanking sholarships for medical reasons—especially the grayshirting—is pretty much the same exact thing as Bear Bryant’s old practice of recruiting a ton of players that he knew would never see the field just so that those players would not go to play for his opponents.
So, new rules, same problem. This must be stopped.
by Mouth of the South on Jan 26, 2012 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
Recruiting is a process
A lot of those at risk for getting a Justin Taylor when another higher ranked (in Saban’s mind) recruit commits from now to Signing Day committed early and have been solid with Alabama, having formed continuing relationships with Bama’s coaches.
You don’t say “Commit to us in June so we can cut you in late January, or maybe see if you can compete for a fourth string spot.” No, you say, “How would you like the opportunity to play for the National Champion and to contribute, if you work hard, to play at Bryant-Denny in front of your parents, to accomplishing another couple of NCs and getting to the NFL?” With all but two of the twenty-six recruits from the Deep South (Maryland and Texas), that strikes a chord.
by Michael Collins on Jan 26, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
Uncommitted recruits with Ala in their top choices
Nick would have to find room with his roster management for these prospects:
Eddie Goldman, DT – Top 4 – Ala,Aub,FSU,Miami
Dalvin Tomlinson, DT – Ala or Ga Tech
Korren Kirven, DT – Ala, TN, or Va Tech
Kuan Alexander, OLB – Ala or Aub
Right now Alabama has 26 verbal commitments and cannot exceed 25.
by Michael Collins on Jan 26, 2012 10:47 AM EST reply actions
Bama recruiting prospect update
26 curren commitsCurrent commits, Possible Academic Casualties (3)
Brandon Hill – needs to qualify
Casey Gladney – prob JC due to academics, prob not pass NCAA Clearinghous
Deion Beleu – having trouble passing Admissions, enrollee from JC
Eddie Goldman, DT – thought to come down to FSU and Ala. Staff not as high on him.
Dalvin Tomlinson, DT – probable favorite for DL for Ala
Korren Kirven, DE – same three, Ala,TN,Va Tech; broke his leg
Casey Gladney, WR – “Soft” Commit, only visits to Ala. Other offers – Cincy,Kent,Tenn
Greyshirt offers, 2013
Justin Taylor, RB – ACL tear
Kwon Alexander, OLB – down to Ala or Aub, knee injury
Kyron Samuels, OT – from Ala. Top 3 – Ala,Aub,Miss St (no offers from Ala or Aub)
Targets, Ala not favorite
Chris Casher, WDE – Commit to FSU; wanted to commit to Ala. Told there was no room.
Avery Young, OT – if Hill does not qualify. Favorites – Aub, Fla, Ga. Has OV to Ala.
So, looks like three verbals will be academic casualties. Three prospects have been offered 2013 scholarships (infamous greyshirts) – two with injuries and one an Ala native that could go out of state. Three solid prospects left with one Soft Commit.
by Michael Collins on Jan 27, 2012 11:45 PM EST reply actions
Urban Meyer and Ohio State
have reached their scholarship limit with no changes and no additions for the 2012 class, but are entertaining prospects this weekend. While Tressel kept a scholarship for a walk-on, it looks like Meyer emulates Saban with his roster managent. The difference is that the Big Ten watches the schools for oversigning.
“There’s no more leeway given,” Big Ten associate commissioner for compliance Chad Hawley said last week of a new coach facing an uncertain roster.
The final number crunch won’t occur until the start of preseason practice in August, when the Buckeyes must have their scholarship number at 82. That’s when the numbers really matter.But next Thursday, the day after signing day, Hawley said schools over their number must inform the Big Ten about how and why they’ll be getting down to the right number by August. In fact, Hawley said last week that he had just taken the opportunity to remind schools that they must report to the conference if they plan to be over their number at this point.
“They need to let us know if they intend to over-offer, and they need to let us know how many spaces they have available,” Hawley said.
Maxed out with scholarships, Ohio State has decisions to make as National Signing Day looms
by Michael Collins on Jan 28, 2012 1:56 PM EST reply actions
Prospect with high interest in Ohio State
Jamal Marcus – in top 2
Armani Reeves – in top 2 (visiting this w/e)
Demetrious Cox – in top 3
Bam Bradley – in top 4
Davonte Neal – in top 4
Kyle Dodson – in second tier of favorites
Stefon Diggs – in second tier of favorites (visiting this w/e)
Roger Lewis – verbal commitment has reopened his recruitment
by Michael Collins on Jan 28, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
We'll have to wait and see
My best bets are that:
Roger Lewis drops to go to Miliary school or JC for academic reasons
Jamal Marcus replaces Lewis
Bam Bradley goes to Stanford
Demetrious Cox chooses Michigan State
Reeves is getting major pressure from Michigan and Ohio St. His teammate just went to OSU. A toss-up.
How they make room for Dodson, Neal, Diggs, and/or Reeves will be Saban-like roster management.
Meyer’s moves since OSU learned they were losing 3 scholarships:
Melvin Fellows and Scott McVey were put on medical hardship scholarships. Taylor Graham’s transfer (to Hawaii) got OSU down to 82. Jeremy Cash announced his transfer (to Duke) on Jan 14, in time for Taylor Decker’s commitment on Jan 15.
DerJuan Gambrill and Dominic Clarke were removed from the team on Jan 16. Gambrill for “violating team rules” and Clarke for two charges – drunken driving and disorderly conduct for allegedly firing a BB gun on campus. Joey O’Conner (Jan 17) and David Perkins (Jan 18) committed.
Carmen Williams, Reeves’ teammate, announced his commitment on Jan 20, putting OSU one over until David Durham announced his transfer (to Pitt) on Jan 23.
Next up prior to the next commit – possibly Jaamal Berry (RB), who was suspended in Nov due to legal difficulties. Then possibly a WR like Ty Williams to make room for Reeves, Neal or Diggs.
by Michael Collins on Jan 28, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
Good to know that the Big Ten is at least keeping a close eye on this.
That definitely doesn’t seem to be the case in the SEC.
I would still like to know how the NCAA stays on top of this, or if they even actually attempt to. I would think that schools would be required to submit some kind of paperwork every semester that shows how all of their schollies are accounted for.
whiskey
www.onefootdown.com
As I understand it,
each school must submit to the NCAA the list of their football players on football scholarships prior to opening fall camp. They must keep to the 25/85 limits. Any other limitations are made by conferences.
The schools have to submit paperwork each semester for academic reports for their players on scholarship. The SEC Presidents are trying to force Saban and his fellow coaches to make decisions prior to Signing Day, so that a player does not sign a binding agreement and then there’s no room for him by the fall. The coaches unanimously opposed the rule.
by Michael Collins on Jan 30, 2012 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
Good to know, thanks for the info.
I wonder if the NCAA ever verifies what the schools send them prior to fall camp? Somehow I’m guessing that the NCAA doesn’t have the manpower to really police this appropriately.
This whole discussion is fascinating. It also illustrates very clearly that liberal interpretations of the rules, low admissions standards and other SECisms really are very advantageous.
whiskey
www.onefootdown.com
Ohio State - Over the limit
Ohio State could sign 23. They signed 25 with Neal and Diggs still undecided. Here’s how it worked out (Maxed Out article link) With 23 verbals at the time of the article, Roger Lewis signed with Washington State instead. Kyle Dodson, OL, Jamal Marcus LB and Armani Reeves signed LOIs, totaling 25.
Stefon Diggs and Davonte Neal, both with ND offers, have not signed LOIs.
Diggs is Rivals #2 WR, which has OSU in his top 5 – though 247 has Diggs’ top 2 as Florida and Auburn. OSU behind. Diggs has taken four OV, but not planned any more.
Davonte Neal, who has also taken all five OVs, is still making up his mind.
OSU is now two and could potentially be four scholarships over the limit. What are Ohio State’s colors?
Ahem
Scarlet and gray.
Sky rockets in flight.
by Eric Murtaugh on Feb 3, 2012 8:26 AM EST up reply actions
Alabama - Over the limit
Alabama started the day with 26 verbal commitments with three possible academic casualties and three players offered greyshirts (scholarships to begin next year). Here’s how that played out.
Two greyshirt offers signed with other teams – Justin Taylor (Atlanta, Ga) with Kentucky, Kwon Alexander (Oxford,AL) with LSU. The third, Kyron Samuels (Fairhope, AL and the nephew of Ala star Chris Samuels), will enroll in Junior College and probably take a Alabama scholarship in 2013.
Alabama got LOIs from two top DTs – Dalvin Tomlinson (Ga) and Korren Kirven (Va).
Two of the possible academic casualties, Deion Belue – a greyshirt who went to JC and is an early enrollee, and Brandon Hill, an OT signed LOIs. The third, Casey Gladney, who was not expected to pass the NCAA Clearinghouse, signed with Texas Tech.
With Tomlinson’s and Kirven’s commitments, an unexpected odd man out was Darius Philon, SDE (Prichard, AL) who had verbally committed to the Tide back in September. He had been asked to greyshirt. Former Alabama commitment Darius Philon signs with Arkansas
26 + 2 – 2 = 26 (Still one over)
Over a two year period
including the 2011 and 2012 classes, Alabama signed 49 and Ohio State signed 51.
The teams that signed more than Ohio State include:
South Carolina – 57 (32 in 2011)
Arkansas – 53 (30 in 2011)
Texas Tech – 53 (27 & 26)
Cincinnati – 53 (28 & 25)
Miami – 52 (33 this year)
Virgina – 52 (26 & 26)
Mississippi State took the SEC crown this year with 28 with Alabama second with 26.
And somehow Miami signed 33...
not sure how that happened, especially with sanctions coming at some point
I don't tweet often--but when I do, you can be sure it isn't important.
@jemiesle
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Sky rockets in flight.
by Eric Murtaugh on Feb 2, 2012 9:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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